July 09, 2007

Did the Limo driver shoot at Kennedy?

(Update: 12/06/07)


When I first saw the version of the Zapruder film that actually showed the driver, Secret Service Agent William Greer, and the front passenger, Agent Roy Kellerman, my first impression was probably like most who first saw it; damn, did the driver shoot Kennedy?!


The actions of both Secret Services agents are, to me, highly suspicious. Agents Greer and Kellerman both turn around at the same time and see Kennedy with his arms up by his neck gasping for air from being shot in the neck, then both turn back around at the same time as if nothing has happened. Then a second later, Greer turns around again to look at Kennedy as he slows the limo down while Kellerman leans back at the same time Greer turns around towards Kennedy, although Kellerman remains looking forward. Then Kennedy gets his head blown off right after Greer turns around and stares at him for the second time and then immediately after, Kellerman leans forward to duck down at the same time as Greer turns back around to the front and leans forward to duck down as he starts to speed away. It's as if both rehearsed their actions dozens of times.


What partially made me think that the driver might of done it was I only remember growing up seeing the Zapruder film version that didn't show the drivers and thought how weird it was that all this time seeing the film before, it didn't show the suspicious actions of the driver and front passenger Secret Service agents and after hearing the excuse Agent Kellerman gave as to why Greer turned around again makes it all the more unbelievable:

Between the second and third shots, however, [Kellerman] claims he shouted, "Let's get out of line, we've been hit," but that Greer apparently turned to look at Kennedy (for the second time), allowing Kennedy to be hit fatally, before accelerating the car out of the danger zone. As Roy Kellerman told author William Manchester, "Greer then looked in the back of the car. Maybe he didn't believe me."

After the initial astonishment wore off and I studied the actions of Greer closer, I concluded that he didn't shoot at Kennedy because it appeared that Greer wasn't holding a gun in his left hand:


Yellow circle showing William Greer's clenched left fist at the time Kennedy's head explodes. Notice his right arm is low on the steering wheel. (Photo source - #312. Note that I enlarged, sharpened, and brightened this still.)


However, after reading allegations that the Zapruder film might have been altered and then those allegations not seeming so far-fetched after I recently learned that the Zapruder film wasn't even shown to the public as a video until Geraldo Rivera first showed it in 1975 on Good Night America, more than 11 years after the assassination, I now wonder if Greer's left arm and hand had been altered if the Zapruder film had indeed been altered?


Now going back to look at the actions of both Greer and Kellerman and factoring in that the Zapruder film may have been altered, I just can't help wonder if Greer didn't whip around to his right with a gun in his left hand while slowing the limo down to pop Kennedy? Is it just another one of those bizarre coincidences that when you look at the film, it does in fact look like Greer did just that?


When looking at Greer with his left hand clinched in a fist in front of him with no gun in the released version of the film, a couple of things seem odd to me.


First, get in your car with both hands high and then low on the steering wheel, then whip around your right to look at the back seat where Kennedy would have been sitting. You'll notice that it would be your natural tendency to take your right hand off the wheel, not your left hand as Greer has appeared to do.


Second, while still in the driver's seat, whip around again back towards where Kennedy was, but this time pretend you're an assassin that has to shoot Kennedy. If the perps planned for the driver to turn around and shoot Kennedy and keep it as concealed as possible, they would most likely have hired a left-handed shooter because a right-handed shooter in the driver's seat would have to extend their right arm straight and all the way back to shoot at Kennedy thereby greatly exposing himself to on-lookers.


Now pretending you have a gun in your left hand, try whipping around to the back to shoot at Kennedy. Would it be easier for you to shoot at Kennedy with you right hand up high on the steering wheel, or down low on the wheel? I think it would be easier if your right hand was down low in the wheel, exactly the position of Greer's right arm. Having your right hand low on the steering wheel and whipping around with a gun in your left hand would be the best way for the driver to shoot at Kennedy and keep it as concealed as possible IMO.


Third, isn't it against protocol for a Secret Service agent, who is driving the President around in front of the public, to have their hands down low on the steering wheel, the position that would flunk you if you're taking a driver's test?


Here is Greer driving before Kennedy gets shot. Notice his hands are up high on the steering wheel; the correct driving position.


Both of Greer's hands are on the steering wheel as the limo was on Elm Street minutes before the shooting.


Forth, Greer having his left hand off the steering wheel clenched in a fist while looking back at Kennedy seems really odd to me. Why would he be clenching his hand in a fist like that? Does his left clenched hand even look natural coming down like that?

(Click gif for clearer view.)

Notice that it looks as if Greer had his left hand up high on the steering wheel before dropping it down. Why would he have his left hand up high on the steering wheel and his right hand down low on the wheel if he wasn't preparing to turn around towards his right side to shoot at Kennedy with his left hand? Coincidence?


Fifth, notice that Kellerman, the passenger, had his hand covering his left ear right before the fatal shot as if he was expecting a shot coming from Greer. Another coincidence?


Lastly, if they are able to doctor the Zapruder film, they would obviously cover-up Greer's left arm and hand if he shoot at Kennedy with it.


Now even if the film has been doctored to cover-up Greer's shooting attempt, there would be some opposing questions even if Greer had shot at Kennedy, namely wouldn't Gov. John Connally's head have been in the way and if Greer did manage to hit Kennedy from the driver's seat, why does Kennedy's head go back and to the left and not back and to the right? I don't claim to have that answers to that, but let me say that just because I don't rule out that Greer may have whipped around to shoot at Kennedy doesn't mean I'm saying he actually shot him and delivered the fatal head shot that caused Kennedy's head to be thrown back and to the left. Some theorize that Kennedy was shot at at multiple angles when Greer slowed the limo down at the final kill-zone. Maybe Greer did shoot Kennedy, but his wasn't the dramatic head shot that looks to have came from the front also.


Whether Greer did shoot at Kennedy or not, Agent Greer's and Kellerman's suspicious actions that day are enough for me to believe that they were both in on it.

See also:

28 comments:

Charles said...

Don't know if you're aware of the late William Cooper, who wrote the seminal conspiracy book BEHOLD A PALE HORSE. He long maintained that it was driver who killed JFK...

FatesWebb said...

we are discussing this here

http://www.debatenation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143

and we are discussing 911 here.

http://www.debatenation.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=7

I miss having you to talk to on 9/11 community, maybe you could check in and talk on this site?

FW

War On Suckers said...

Didn't William Cooper die in a hale of bullets outside his house just days before 911?

Conspiracy Smasher said...

Are there any conspiracies you don't believe in?

Tactical111 said...

The day JFK was shot his car was moving much slower than the 45 mph minimum dictated by Secret Service protocal. Notice in live footage how the foot patrol agents were called off just before the kill zone. The driver slowed and looked back twice to confirm that the kill was good. THEN he sped up. Also the usual Secret Service contingent that swept routes for the presidents was called off for this trip. Otherwise that open window in the book depository building would NEVER have been allowed. Is there a gov lie you don't believe in, "Proof Smasher"?

dutydriven said...

While in collage (1983) a good friend showed me a BW film taken from above and on the left side of the car. In this film that I have never seen released in any public forum or news anywhere, you see the front seat passenger speak to Greer, reach over to hold the wheel while Greer shoots over his shoulder with his left hand. Clear as day and you even see the recoil of the weapon. He had this film from his father, an American dissident in the sixties. Where he got it, I don't remember. Wish I had a copy though.

Anonymous said...

OMG how can you discuss Greer and show the new stabilized/sanitized Zapruder print?!!! To really see what Greer was doing, you have to look at the older prints (like the several offered on Groden's DVD). In the new print, which you offer, his motions have been totally changed to make him look LESS guilty. Seriously, go back and look at the older prints, at full frame and full speed (stills don't really convey it). Please!

Anonymous said...

Following up on my above post-- People may ask, well how could we not notice Greer's actions all these years? The answer is that even after the Zapruder film began to be circulated in public after 1975, quite often we were shown a zoom-in on Kennedy and Jackie during the critical head-snap sequence, leaving Greer out of frame, and/or the film is ususally shown with various voiceovers guiding us to study Kennedy's motions "back and to the left" etc. My hunch is that relatively few people have really studied old prints (like the fellow above me mentioned) in full frame. As for Kennedy's reaction, I think when you see the sequence it makes sense, the way his body moves in reaction to Greer's discreet point-blank shot. Remember too that witnesses would have been watching the President. For example, few noticed that Connally had been shot too. Greer's actions would have been lost in the general commotion of the event. Also note, on some of the old prints, the splicing to try and hide Greer's movements.

stevenwarran said...

Greer's having a gun in his hand as he turned to look would have been perceived and justified as a defensive act--not offensive--to any passersby who chanced to witness the action. I mean really. Conceptually, it is still unthinkable that we would harm our own, isn't it? Like, why would we kill our own citizens on 9/11?

Question: Any proof that Greer was left handed?

Daniel said...

didnt misses Kennedy heard the gunshot??? was she deaf or involved????

vashra said...

Daniel...

Of course she heard it. Her husband had been murdered while she held him in her arms. She was frightened enough to start to bolt out of the car. She ended up clutching to a piece of her murdered husband's brain.

But what was she going to do, or say?

They had two little children.

Seriously, put yourself in her shoes. Poor woman. Of course she kept her mouth shut.

They still killed her son later.

llyynn said...

I had heard a few years ago, right after Jackie died, that she had given her layer 2 envelopes. 1 to be opened 25 years after her death, and the other to be opened 100 years after her death. I've always wondered what could have been so important, except that she knew who the killer was, and a 100 years later, well....it's just history.

nina said...

Concerninf the Limo Driver William Greer firing the Fatal Head Shot to "JFK", and everyone wanting to "Debunk" what is before their very eyes.

How do you explain the puff of smoke comming from the Gun which I saw in the video. And Killerman's head had been altered in that film, so that it is actually comical looking, no body....I repeaat "NO BODY" has a head that screcheeihgly funny looking, it is "Rediciolus, as of to how flat his head is in that film, HA ! HA ! HA!

And besides what about the eye witnesses that actually saw him firing the gun toward the back of the car....All you stupid debunkers out there that cant see the forest for the damn trees, I have a question for you....Did you by any chance help, write the Warren Report???

Anonymous said...

Kennedy was very disliked throughout America whith him being a Catholic president, and after some research I found that William Greer is protestant. Also when greer's son was asked what his father thought of President Kennedy he said, "Well he's a Catholic, and were methodist(protestant).
It's a small point on this subject, but it does make sense if you see how much religion played a part in Kennedy's popularity.

Jim Fetzer said...

This has long been a bone of contention in the JFK research community. The strongest argument against Greer having shot JFK is that then his brains would have been blow out to the right-rear, when they were blown out to the left-rear. Officer Hargis, who was riding to the left-rear, was hit by the brains and debris so hard he though he himself had been shot. A triangular chunk of Jack's skull was found to the left on the grass the next day. For more on the falsification of the film, see "Zapruder JFK Film impeached by Moorman JFK Polaroid", "US Government Official: JFK Cover-up, Film Fabrication", and the tutorial by John P. Costella on my assassinationscience.com public issues web site.

Robert Hanson said...

The driver's left arm crosses over his right shoulder in the nix film which proves the zfilm was altered heavily to hide that fact and jfk's real assassin, William Greer.
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/Gifs/jfk__GIFSoupcom.gif
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/jfkcloserecoil.gif

Jimmy Wayne said...

I remember growing up in the South that President Kennedy was hated by many southerners because of his pro-civil rights stand. I seems curious that he was shot in a southern state.

Teach English Abroad said...

The "Limo Driver" was United States Secret Service Agent, William Greer.

"The Driver" makes it sound like he was a day laborer hired at Love Field.

Robert Hanson said...

Maybe Jim Fetzer will be one of the old timer theorists who will give in to the obvious truth about Greer. His peers would be very upset if he went over to the dark side, though. At least Fetzer is not foolish enough like that idiot, Jim Marrs who publishes articles that tell outright lies.
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/Gifs/jfkgungifslow-1.gif
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/

Robert Hanson said...

This whole case is a cover-up on many levels and the driver firing the fatal shot is by far the most important thing to keep covered up.

Most researchers are simply going to ignore my work because they'll look silly posing simple denials of visual facts. Frame 318 is the fake reflection and 319 is the gun bleached in white they could NOT edit out.
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/Gifs/jfkgungifslow-1.gif
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/

Robert Hanson said...

Originally Posted by local
remembers thanking you months earlier for posting this thread.

I totally agree with you but I can't believe people in real life get so up tight when you bring up that greer shot him. It's like you are committing blasphemy but saying that the gov't doesn't always tell us the truth.

I don't know why people get so upset, if God had something to do with the death I would understand because weak religious people can't argue a point, but it was just black and white and people still get riled up at me.

<---First time conspiracy theorist

Thanks, for the support. It's not supposed to be true but obviously is. Before my obsession with the Zfilm no person proved it beyond any doubt.

Robert Hanson said...

I'm going to tell you this once. You have NOT read through this thread and the only thing that you're doing is posting nonsense and silly denials of visual facts. [b]OSWALD IS INNOCENT AND DIDN'T SHOOT ANYONE. There is absolutely no evidence to back that up. No one has challenged anything I've posted because there is no defense against visual facts[/b].

[b]You ignore that Greer has both hands off the wheel before he turns the first time and passes an object which is the gun because you are doing what anyone has to do to deny an unpleasant fact[/b]. Whatever you think you know about the fatal shot is complete bull# and easily disproven by simply watching Greer in zapruder and nix.

[b]HE KILLED KENNEDY AND THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE CAN DO EXCEPT DENY THE FACTS THAT PROVE HE CLEARLY SHOT JFK. Arguments posed by other members ARE SIMPLE DENIALS AND NOTHING MORE. There are ZERO flaws in the common sense that Greer shot jfk...none. I have continued to rape the souls of thousands of kooks and wackos on 30 or 40 forums since October. I posted more evidence and logic than any army of lawyers could handle let alone some pea brains on any message board[/b].

Robert Hanson said...

Originally Posted by bravodelta

Although mostly everyone agrees that there had to be more than one shooter. I'm pretty convinced that the driver was one of the assassins. There is footage out there that I saw that shows a hand and gun and a puff of smoke coming from the driver. Anyone seen it?



I don't mean to brag but I turned to be the researcher who picked up where Cooper and Newcomb left off. There is no smoke that I'm aware of but my most significant discovery is showing Greer's left arm crossing over in the nix film. This is the smoking gun of smoking guns.
[IMG]http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac98/77forever/Gifs/enhanced-nix-gif_o_GIFSoupcom.gif[/IMG]

Robert Hanson said...

http://www.amazon.com/review/R3AHHASKGO9EEP/ref=cm_cd_pg_pg1?ie=UTF8&cdPage=1&asin=B0006CMCB2&store=books#wasThisHelpful?tag=survivaldiscu-20

Posted on Nov. 9, 2010 2:24 AM PST

Maskmaker says:

Tyler, years ago I found a jpg of a newspaper clip from the Chicago sun times, dated Sat., Nov 23, 1963, and not only is Senator Yarborough quoted as saying he smelled gun powder on LBJ's limo nearly all the way to the hospital, he is quoted as saying that the 3rd shot may have been from a Secret Service man returning fire! Can't wait to get my hands on this book after all these years, & hopefully, the DVD! All the evidence points towards Greer taking the final shot.



In reply to an earlier post on Nov. 9, 2010 2:41 AM PST

Tyler Newcomb says:

Yes I have a very faded copy of that. If you still have it I'd like to see if it's better than mine to find a way to put it in the book. Thanks

A Murder Within was self published in 1974.

camby said...

Years ago I saw some videos of numerous government coverups that was supposedly taken from the Nat. Archives by a Naval Officer who went AWOL. This was about 4-5 years before the JFK movie with Costner came out.

Part of the 8 hours of video was the unaltered video of the JFK Assasination. In it you can clearly see the driver shooting JFK and the passenger lean over to hold the wheel. They broke the video down to show the limo had slowed to less than 11 mph at the time of the shooting. The video also went into details about the hobos that were questioned from the train yard (dressed in new clothes but supposed hobos)and numerous other things like mysterious deaths. It also went on to talk about Kenedy's "vaul" on th eplane being tampered with during flight. It held the coffin. Also stated that his brain disappeared because it would have revealed poisoning from some sort of shell fish that was used in the tips of CIA bullets at that time.

Just sharing


dc

Unknown said...

Any thoughts on the "shot" coming from the storm drain in the curb, directly below the man hole cover? (I assume you've heard this idea, and know that the storm drain was in a pretty good spot. Unrelated of course, but by the "umbrella man".

Timothy Lowe said...

You were in "collage"? How'd that work out for you?

Stephanie Hankins said...

Ok so a many of you have mentioned here there is a video I have seen out there, not positive which one that I not only clearly saw a gun but saw a flash come from it and JFK struck immediately after. Now lets think logically,I am a woman, of my husband was shot next to me in a convertible by the driver in front of us, which I clearly just saw and heard, I would try to get away from the shooter, meaning try to crawl out of the car as she did.its logical. if a shot didn't come from in the car I might have ducked down or something to the floorboard.instinct is to get away from danger.the danger was in the car so her first thought was to get out. Secondly, yes it was obviously coordinated, my opinion is that the other shots from outside the car, grassy knoll or whatever were the louder, first shots to distract everyone and work like a slight of hand so that you didn't see or hear the quieter handgun shot literal slight of hand going on in the car itself, the shot possibly at almost the same time to sound like one shot. Why there is a discrepancy in witnesses testimony between 2 or 3 shots fired. It is so amazing to me that this is even considered a conspiracy theory. It was filmed.clearly. If this was just some random guy whose murder happened to be filmed the same way this would be an open and shut case. I just don't understand how this can be the biggest mystery blah blah blah.its filmed clearly in front of your eyes for goodness sakes. America open your eyes already!
PS 9/11 was an inside job as well.