Being in the military for 20+ years, jet fuel fires are alot different than munitions. The first picture is not reminscence of a jet fuel fire or aircraft crash. I seen an A-6 Intruder years ago go nose down into the dirt and left a larger and darker smoke plume, which also did not diminish for quite some time. I have seen many bombs detonate and that picture is similar.
Killtown, Rumpl... I think your arguments of plume color are interesting. I find your plume size argument compelling. It would be interesting if some tables of data could be dug up showing an empirical relationship of plume size to ordinance size. For instance, I wonder what kind of ordinance it would take to make a plume 2200' wide. I also initially thought your argument of the plume not lining up with the crash zone could be incorrect if the origin of the photo was slightly different than right in front of her house (as your photo/geometry analysis shows). For instance, maybe she took the photo while standing slightly to the left of her house looking towards the crash scene. However, a closer examination of the photo appears to show both the driveway of the house on the left side of the photo and the mail box on the right side of the photo, which would place the photo origin right smack near the front center of her house. So, I do concur it appears the plume is indeed not lined up with the crash site.
If you haven't already considered it, I would encourage you both to write up a paper with your arguments and submit it to www.journalof911studies.com for peer review and feedback. You appear to have strong arguments here.
You people need to quit looking for conspiracy theories and learn to think for yourselves, instead of agreeing with everything this site says. It seems every article I read there is at least one unsubstantiated fact thrown in there...Instead of conjuring secret societies or rings of powerful people and reasons they would do this, look at the most obvious explanation. Radical Muslims, who hate the US and all it stands for, attacked us. It isn't the first time, and it won't be the last. Next thing I'm going to see on here is that the military is planting IED's in Iraq so they can later get blown up by them. Or the US is firing rockets at Israel so war breaks out and the US can take over the Middle East and control the worlds oil...If this is the case, then all terrorist attacks, assasinations, assasination attempts, against the US or its peoples have been devised by these same people. Actually I'm sure the founding fathers all had this planned when they signed the Declaration of Independence. It had to be, because who would ever attempt to harm someone they hate so much that they would rather die than see them alive?
If this is the case, then all terrorist attacks, assasinations, assasination attempts, against the US or its peoples have been devised by these same people. Actually I'm sure the founding fathers all had this planned when they signed the Declaration of Independence. It had to be, because who would ever attempt to harm someone they hate so much that they would rather die than see them alive? ............................... Well, good morning! You know, if you remove the slight sarcasm in that post, I'd say someone is beginning to wake up.
Military planting the IED's? How about ironclad proof that the "coalition forces" have been participating, if not aiding the 'insurgency'? British military were arrested by Iraqi police after they were caught "in Arab clothes, carrying IED munitions in the trunk of their car." Then, several Iraqi police were killed when the Brits stormed the police station to extricate them. Nothing fishy there. Notice how fast that story went away?
Iraq is not about WMD's or Democracy or any of that MSM cover-story fluff - it's about creating enough instability to demand that the UN/NATO step in and "stop the bloodshed", assinging another chunk of the Middle East to the 'global army.' Pay attention to Lebanon, 1.2 million displaced already: a work in progress, same story, same op.
Don't worry about this not making sense to you right now - it will someday.
regarding both of those stories -- the question becomes, 'how many times must you be lied to before you even NOTICE it?' let alone stop falling for the next one
Military planting the IED's? How about ironclad proof that the "coalition forces" have been participating, if not aiding the 'insurgency'? British military were arrested by Iraqi police after they were caught "in Arab clothes, carrying IED munitions in the trunk of their car." Then, several Iraqi police were killed when the Brits stormed the police station to extricate them. Nothing fishy there. Notice how fast that story went away? ...................................
Ironclad proof? Nothing I see in that article or any other article is ironclad. It seems to me that there are a lot of unknowns and a lot of discrepancies. Two British SAS members dressed as Iraqi's? Nothing unusual, considering special forces want to look like natives in order to blend in. For example, in Afghanistan, special forces routinely patrol dressed in full robes with turbans, on horses. Are they participating in Taliban activities, or are they blending in? Why did they fire on Iraqi Police? Well it is widely known that there are corrupt police there, many of them have loyalties to the local militia. In fact, the two SAS operatives were not recovered in the police station, but in a house. What kind of police force detains people and turns them over to a militia? If you are undercover, and get made, not only is your life in danger, but the lives of anyone you are working with is in danger also. If I were undercover and about to be stopped by possibly corrupt policemen, I would open fire to, if it were the only way to break contact and still be able to carry on the mission. This is not the first time the British SAS has gone deep undercover. They are known to have done the same thing in Ireland to help infiltrate groups there. You ask if I noticed how fast the story went away? Could it possibly be that there were no ironclad proof of anything? Do you seriously think if there was more to the story the media wouldn't jump all over this? Oh believe me I'm not worried about this not making sense. It seems to make perfect sense to me. We aren't living in a movie, this is the real world, conspiracies aren't behind everything that happens.
Do you seriously think if there was more to the story the media wouldn't jump all over this? ......................... Is this a trick question? Yes, the media is SO reliable anymore, particularly when it's owned by the very corporations who make the most money from war itself.
The Brits STORMED THE POLICE STATION to bust these guys out, killing an Iraqi policeman. That doesn't sound INTERESTING enough to make the MSM?
Get a grip. Denial is a warm comfortable place, where you never have to actually do anything about reality.
Yes, the British stormed the police station, found no one there, and then raided a house in which the two operatives were being held. How about you do a little research on that. Also, don't talk about denial. Your right, reality sucks. I know all about reality, being part of the military. Friends and colleages I knew have died in the war. Its easy to sit back and watch and criticize everything. How about you try filling the shoes of these people, making life or death decisions daily, the next wrong decision, your best buddy is dead. You know what, I wish I was in denial, and I was able to have a nice, comfortable place. Honestly, I think you are the one who needs to get a grip on reality. Also, the post that started this debate wasnt even about the war in Iraq. Its dealing with the "9/11 conspiracy." I commented on how everybody agrees with what is posted. How about you take your own advice, wake up, stop falling for countless lies, just because they make things seem more interesting, and research some of the facts yourself.
How about you take your own advice, wake up, stop falling for countless lies, just because they make things seem more interesting, and research some of the facts yourself. .......................... Wow. You're blindly backing the Bush administration, and I'M the one who's falling for 'countless lies." :) Amazing. I guess some of us we deserve the ass-reaming we get from government. Good luck with that. Seriously, you'll need it.
That's right - some woman, out of the goodness of her heart, woke up on 9/11, and decided to fake a photo of a smoke plume so the imbecile who runs this site could find out about her coverup 5 years later.
I have just one question: whatever moron runs this site, has he had his lobotomy completed yet? Because he is not working too well with a pea brain.
Ok, I must have forgotten the part where I said I backed the Bush administration completely. Please remind me by showing it to me. I also missed the part where I said I was getting "an ass reaming." Could you tell me how I'm getting reamed in the ass?
Again, overall, it can't be stressed enough, that the flight 93 crash crater was also very suspicious -- it had no sign of large plane parts anywhere, very little human remains, and the crater was much too small to have been made by a 757 that completely disintegrated.
On top of that, there is the shoot-down controversy that was promoted by the govt early on as an alternative of what happened to the plane.
I am in no way agreeing that the photo is faked, I believe it is genuine, but even if it was, how is that a "smoking gun" that the government was behind the 9/11 attacks? At the worst, some lady wanted some fame, nothing else. So again, where is this proof of the "government planned" 9/11 attacks?
but even if it was, how is that a "smoking gun" that the government was behind the 9/11 attacks?
If it was fake, do you really believe the FBI had nothing to do with it even after they took her memory card back with them after telling Val they saw "debris shooting out of the plume"? Do you know how stupid and incompetent the FBI would be/look if they couldn't even tell the photo was doctored by a 50 yr old lady even after they took her card back with them to do more analysis on the photo?
Exactly, the FBI would be able to tell if it was faked. Therefore, it is obvious that it is not faked, and of course they would take it, to look at it more in depth, not to doctor it to cover up something or make people believe something happened. So if the smoke plume was the crater "being created" and not the plane going down, what happened to the plane? It must have gone somewhere? I'll be out of touch for a few days, or weeks, so please give me time to respond, don't think you've run me off.
Well there are far too many questions that have not been answered. I do not expect all questions to be answered however what I do expect is that the truth is spoken. A country that is divided against itself will not stand. All those FBI, Secret Services and Military people... someone WILL come out with the truth, sooner or later the world will come to know of this dark secret, ashaming all Americans. We can have all the discussions in this world but truth WILL have the last laugh.
All those FBI, Secret Services and Military people... someone WILL come out with the truth, sooner or later...
Hmmm...five years, and not one person has said anything? In a government which leaks like a sieve?
That's because there was no cover-up. These conspiracy tales are spread by people with too much time on their hands. Get out of the house, stop thinking about phonied up conspiratorial crap, and get a job, for God's frikkin sake, you lazy leftwing bastards. I am tired of paying my taxes so you can sit on your asses and come up with this phony shit.
and again it comes back to people like you who are just thinking about money..... you are no different from those savage killers..... what is about finally??? money... Pay your taxes.. everyone does and you will continue to pay even if all of "lazy leftwing bastards" are working..... for once think UNITED... shit there is no Unity in this country... just made up of greedy bastards that wanna fill their coffers....
"Hmmm...five years, and not one person has said anything? In a government which leaks like a sieve?
That's because there was no cover-up."
Apparantly you have a massively selective fox news filter operating in your brain. There have been plenty of people who have forward with evidence of conspiracy--from witnesses, to whistleblowers. People like you ignore and deny all this (or are just plain ignorant) and then claim there is no one coming forward... Your statement is equivalent to: "Guys, stop it with the conspiracies--other than everyone who has come forward with testimony and evidence and has consequently been either ignored or gagged, there is no one leaking information about a conspiracy..." Duh... Open you brain man.
Amazing! I am an egyptian, living in Kuwait, and I find these conspiracy theories fascinating. A week ago i wouldn't have believed a word being said here, but I watched Loose Change recently and it's changed my perspective on so much. Maaan was i sitting there in the dark!, but what I really can't get my head round is if you wanted to cover something up, wouldn't you come up with realistic allibies and believable evidence? For example, when they said that the plane that crashed into the pentagon was "vapourised by the heat" and so there was no remains. What kind of an idiot would believe that?!?! Funnily enough most people just accept it as a truth. There's something going on for sure.
Does no one question the authenticity of this photo? It is super convenient that a woman took a picture of an explosion five seconds after she was almost knocked off her couch. I also keep my camera right next to the door, it is the safest place to put it. Five seconds? Who can get up, grab a camera, open a door, see a smoke cloud, turn on the camera, aim the camera, and take a picture all in 5 seconds?
i like many people have been told that what happened on sept 11 was a terroisit attack. i saw it happen on the news that day and it all seemed realistic. that is what i have been told and that is what i saw and belived. up till now. i belive that it was to do with the govenment. things just dnt add up. like the planes that vanished. the pentagon, the hole was jst a round circle shape that went right through to the other side of the building. 1st a plane cud not go though that much rumble and re-enforced steel. 2nd there was no wing or engine holes like there would of been if a plane had crashed into the pentagon and 3rd on footage-the only footage that was given out by the fbi shows no plane ever flying into it. the footage from the gas station, hotel they were all taken before enyone could see them. so u tell me that the 911 was not to do with govrnment! i am only 16 and have seen this info n heard it of diffrent ppl but they all say the same. and it is wat i belive.
Being in the military for 20+ years, jet fuel fires are alot different than munitions. The first picture is not reminscence of a jet fuel fire or aircraft crash. I seen an A-6 Intruder years ago go nose down into the dirt and left a larger and darker smoke plume, which also did not diminish for quite some time. I have seen many bombs detonate and that picture is similar.
ReplyDeleteCoffeelover,,,,,,,,
Great analysis.
ReplyDeleteI guess that pic of Val's doesn't have to be a fake. It could be a real picture of the crater we all say being created.
Hmm. Interesting none the less.
[URL=http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shanksvillephotoanalysiscd8.gif][IMG]http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5701/shanksvillephotoanalysiscd8.th.gif[/IMG][/URL]
ReplyDeleteexcellent work, Kill.
ReplyDeleteSEH-- that smoke is in the wrong place for it to have come from the crater
Do you really have permission to be using that photograph or are you just trolling for a publicity lawsuit?
ReplyDeleteExcellent work Killtown.
ReplyDeleteKilltown, Rumpl... I think your arguments of plume color are interesting. I find your plume size argument compelling. It would be interesting if some tables of data could be dug up showing an empirical relationship of plume size to ordinance size. For instance, I wonder what kind of ordinance it would take to make a plume 2200' wide. I also initially thought your argument of the plume not lining up with the crash zone could be incorrect if the origin of the photo was slightly different than right in front of her house (as your photo/geometry analysis shows). For instance, maybe she took the photo while standing slightly to the left of her house looking towards the crash scene. However, a closer examination of the photo appears to show both the driveway of the house on the left side of the photo and the mail box on the right side of the photo, which would place the photo origin right smack near the front center of her house. So, I do concur it appears the plume is indeed not lined up with the crash site.
ReplyDeleteIf you haven't already considered it, I would encourage you both to write up a paper with your arguments and submit it to www.journalof911studies.com for peer review and feedback. You appear to have strong arguments here.
JT
Like hey man, I mean how did she get those words in the sky? I mean, that's what I want to know. She has her name in the sky and everything.
ReplyDeleteLike hey have you seen Loose Change?
See it before we have to change it agian!
Great job! This is very convincing.
ReplyDeleteAvery Dylan... does your Daddy know you're on his PC every day while he's at work?
ReplyDeleteSomebody's gonna lose their Nintendo for a week again.
You people need to quit looking for conspiracy theories and learn to think for yourselves, instead of agreeing with everything this site says. It seems every article I read there is at least one unsubstantiated fact thrown in there...Instead of conjuring secret societies or rings of powerful people and reasons they would do this, look at the most obvious explanation. Radical Muslims, who hate the US and all it stands for, attacked us. It isn't the first time, and it won't be the last. Next thing I'm going to see on here is that the military is planting IED's in Iraq so they can later get blown up by them. Or the US is firing rockets at Israel so war breaks out and the US can take over the Middle East and control the worlds oil...If this is the case, then all terrorist attacks, assasinations, assasination attempts, against the US or its peoples have been devised by these same people. Actually I'm sure the founding fathers all had this planned when they signed the Declaration of Independence. It had to be, because who would ever attempt to harm someone they hate so much that they would rather die than see them alive?
ReplyDeleteIf this is the case, then all terrorist attacks, assasinations, assasination attempts, against the US or its peoples have been devised by these same people. Actually I'm sure the founding fathers all had this planned when they signed the Declaration of Independence. It had to be, because who would ever attempt to harm someone they hate so much that they would rather die than see them alive?
ReplyDelete...............................
Well, good morning! You know, if you remove the slight sarcasm in that post, I'd say someone is beginning to wake up.
Military planting the IED's? How about ironclad proof that the "coalition forces" have been participating, if not aiding the 'insurgency'? British military were arrested by Iraqi police after they were caught "in Arab clothes, carrying IED munitions in the trunk of their car." Then, several Iraqi police were killed when the Brits stormed the police station to extricate them. Nothing fishy there. Notice how fast that story went away?
here
Iraq is not about WMD's or Democracy or any of that MSM cover-story fluff - it's about creating enough instability to demand that the UN/NATO step in and "stop the bloodshed", assinging another chunk of the Middle East to the 'global army.' Pay attention to Lebanon, 1.2 million displaced already: a work in progress, same story, same op.
Don't worry about this not making sense to you right now - it will someday.
regarding both of those stories -- the question becomes, 'how many times must you be lied to before you even NOTICE it?' let alone stop falling for the next one
ReplyDeleteaccording to history, its very very high number
Military planting the IED's? How about ironclad proof that the "coalition forces" have been participating, if not aiding the 'insurgency'? British military were arrested by Iraqi police after they were caught "in Arab clothes, carrying IED munitions in the trunk of their car." Then, several Iraqi police were killed when the Brits stormed the police station to extricate them. Nothing fishy there. Notice how fast that story went away?
ReplyDelete...................................
Ironclad proof? Nothing I see in that article or any other article is ironclad. It seems to me that there are a lot of unknowns and a lot of discrepancies. Two British SAS members dressed as Iraqi's? Nothing unusual, considering special forces want to look like natives in order to blend in. For example, in Afghanistan, special forces routinely patrol dressed in full robes with turbans, on horses. Are they participating in Taliban activities, or are they blending in? Why did they fire on Iraqi Police? Well it is widely known that there are corrupt police there, many of them have loyalties to the local militia. In fact, the two SAS operatives were not recovered in the police station, but in a house. What kind of police force detains people and turns them over to a militia? If you are undercover, and get made, not only is your life in danger, but the lives of anyone you are working with is in danger also. If I were undercover and about to be stopped by possibly corrupt policemen, I would open fire to, if it were the only way to break contact and still be able to carry on the mission. This is not the first time the British SAS has gone deep undercover. They are known to have done the same thing in Ireland to help infiltrate groups there. You ask if I noticed how fast the story went away? Could it possibly be that there were no ironclad proof of anything? Do you seriously think if there was more to the story the media wouldn't jump all over this? Oh believe me I'm not worried about this not making sense. It seems to make perfect sense to me. We aren't living in a movie, this is the real world, conspiracies aren't behind everything that happens.
Do you seriously think if there was more to the story the media wouldn't jump all over this?
ReplyDelete.........................
Is this a trick question? Yes, the media is SO reliable anymore, particularly when it's owned by the very corporations who make the most money from war itself.
The Brits STORMED THE POLICE STATION to bust these guys out, killing an Iraqi policeman. That doesn't sound INTERESTING enough to make the MSM?
Get a grip. Denial is a warm comfortable place, where you never have to actually do anything about reality.
Yes, the British stormed the police station, found no one there, and then raided a house in which the two operatives were being held. How about you do a little research on that. Also, don't talk about denial. Your right, reality sucks. I know all about reality, being part of the military. Friends and colleages I knew have died in the war. Its easy to sit back and watch and criticize everything. How about you try filling the shoes of these people, making life or death decisions daily, the next wrong decision, your best buddy is dead. You know what, I wish I was in denial, and I was able to have a nice, comfortable place. Honestly, I think you are the one who needs to get a grip on reality. Also, the post that started this debate wasnt even about the war in Iraq. Its dealing with the "9/11 conspiracy." I commented on how everybody agrees with what is posted. How about you take your own advice, wake up, stop falling for countless lies, just because they make things seem more interesting, and research some of the facts yourself.
ReplyDeleteHow about you take your own advice, wake up, stop falling for countless lies, just because they make things seem more interesting, and research some of the facts yourself.
ReplyDelete..........................
Wow. You're blindly backing the Bush administration, and I'M the one who's falling for 'countless lies."
:)
Amazing. I guess some of us we deserve the ass-reaming we get from government.
Good luck with that. Seriously, you'll need it.
That's right - some woman, out of the goodness of her heart, woke up on 9/11, and decided to fake a photo of a smoke plume so the imbecile who runs this site could find out about her coverup 5 years later.
ReplyDeleteI have just one question: whatever moron runs this site, has he had his lobotomy completed yet? Because he is not working too well with a pea brain.
Ok, I must have forgotten the part where I said I backed the Bush administration completely. Please remind me by showing it to me. I also missed the part where I said I was getting "an ass reaming." Could you tell me how I'm getting reamed in the ass?
ReplyDeleteAgain, overall, it can't be stressed enough, that the flight 93 crash crater was also very suspicious -- it had no sign of large plane parts anywhere, very little human remains, and the crater was much too small to have been made by a 757 that completely disintegrated.
ReplyDeleteOn top of that, there is the shoot-down controversy that was promoted by the govt early on as an alternative of what happened to the plane.
I am in no way agreeing that the photo is faked, I believe it is genuine, but even if it was, how is that a "smoking gun" that the government was behind the 9/11 attacks? At the worst, some lady wanted some fame, nothing else. So again, where is this proof of the "government planned" 9/11 attacks?
ReplyDeletebut even if it was, how is that a "smoking gun" that the government was behind the 9/11 attacks?
ReplyDeleteIf it was fake, do you really believe the FBI had nothing to do with it even after they took her memory card back with them after telling Val they saw "debris shooting out of the plume"? Do you know how stupid and incompetent the FBI would be/look if they couldn't even tell the photo was doctored by a 50 yr old lady even after they took her card back with them to do more analysis on the photo?
Exactly, the FBI would be able to tell if it was faked. Therefore, it is obvious that it is not faked, and of course they would take it, to look at it more in depth, not to doctor it to cover up something or make people believe something happened. So if the smoke plume was the crater "being created" and not the plane going down, what happened to the plane? It must have gone somewhere? I'll be out of touch for a few days, or weeks, so please give me time to respond, don't think you've run me off.
ReplyDeleteWell there are far too many questions that have not been answered. I do not expect all questions to be answered however what I do expect is that the truth is spoken. A country that is divided against itself will not stand. All those FBI, Secret Services and Military people... someone WILL come out with the truth, sooner or later the world will come to know of this dark secret, ashaming all Americans. We can have all the discussions in this world but truth WILL have the last laugh.
ReplyDeleteAll those FBI, Secret Services and Military people... someone WILL come out with the truth, sooner or later...
ReplyDeleteHmmm...five years, and not one person has said anything? In a government which leaks like a sieve?
That's because there was no cover-up. These conspiracy tales are spread by people with too much time on their hands. Get out of the house, stop thinking about phonied up conspiratorial crap, and get a job, for God's frikkin sake, you lazy leftwing bastards. I am tired of paying my taxes so you can sit on your asses and come up with this phony shit.
and again it comes back to people like you who are just thinking about money..... you are no different from those savage killers..... what is about finally??? money... Pay your taxes.. everyone does and you will continue to pay even if all of "lazy leftwing bastards" are working..... for once think UNITED... shit there is no Unity in this country... just made up of greedy bastards that wanna fill their coffers....
ReplyDelete"Hmmm...five years, and not one person has said anything? In a government which leaks like a sieve?
ReplyDeleteThat's because there was no cover-up."
Apparantly you have a massively selective fox news filter operating in your brain. There have been plenty of people who have forward with evidence of conspiracy--from witnesses, to whistleblowers. People like you ignore and deny all this (or are just plain ignorant) and then claim there is no one coming forward... Your statement is equivalent to: "Guys, stop it with the conspiracies--other than everyone who has come forward with testimony and evidence and has consequently been either ignored or gagged, there is no one leaking information about a conspiracy..." Duh... Open you brain man.
JT
Amazing! I am an egyptian, living in Kuwait, and I find these conspiracy theories fascinating. A week ago i wouldn't have believed a word being said here, but I watched Loose Change recently and it's changed my perspective on so much. Maaan was i sitting there in the dark!, but what I really can't get my head round is if you wanted to cover something up, wouldn't you come up with realistic allibies and believable evidence? For example, when they said that the plane that crashed into the pentagon was "vapourised by the heat" and so there was no remains. What kind of an idiot would believe that?!?! Funnily enough most people just accept it as a truth. There's something going on for sure.
ReplyDeleteDoes no one question the authenticity of this photo? It is super convenient that a woman took a picture of an explosion five seconds after she was almost knocked off her couch. I also keep my camera right next to the door, it is the safest place to put it. Five seconds? Who can get up, grab a camera, open a door, see a smoke cloud, turn on the camera, aim the camera, and take a picture all in 5 seconds?
ReplyDeletei like many people have been told that what happened on sept 11 was a terroisit attack. i saw it happen on the news that day and it all seemed realistic. that is what i have been told and that is what i saw and belived. up till now. i belive that it was to do with the govenment. things just dnt add up. like the planes that vanished. the pentagon, the hole was jst a round circle shape that went right through to the other side of the building. 1st a plane cud not go though that much rumble and re-enforced steel. 2nd there was no wing or engine holes like there would of been if a plane had crashed into the pentagon and 3rd on footage-the only footage that was given out by the fbi shows no plane ever flying into it. the footage from the gas station, hotel they were all taken before enyone could see them. so u tell me that the 911 was not to do with govrnment!
ReplyDeletei am only 16 and have seen this info n heard it of diffrent ppl but they all say the same. and it is wat i belive.